Okay, I did it again! I’m sorry. I didn’t reply to any of the comments because of time. And the spare time that I can muster up is taken up by marathoning Breaking Bad. (And can I just say, I love that show, I think. It was on the list of shows I should watch this summer, but Buffy won out.) But I read all of them (as always). Even the one from someone who has been lurking but has never commented. Please comment again, person! I love you!
So here’s the good news: I sort of…like season 3. Is it okay to say that this early? Cool. There hasn’t been an episode that I’ve dreaded or even didn’t care about, really. In other words, there have been no “Go Fish”s (or “Some Assembly Required”s or…well, you get the point). Perhaps “Beauty and the Beasts?” Once again, I don’t really understand the season-long villain’s…uh…anything, really. I think I may have to rewatch the episode in which we were introduced to the mayor, but that said, I very much enjoy The Mayor and Mr. Trick’s scenes (over The Master’s or Spike and Dru’s).
I’m going to try to do this recap a bit differently and just talk about the major points. Perhaps doing that in the future will also help me write these quicker. This week, it’s a lot easier because everything was sort of separated by couples. I hate that that’s really what I’m going to talk about this week, but here is every shipping dynamic possible:
So something that sort of happened in these past six episodes is Willow and Xander getting all…ahem…tongue tied. Of course, this has been brewing for a little while (like, say, the beginning of the series), but I was mostly just shocked by it. I mean, sure there were plenty of feels, but I was also like “WHAT?”
First off, what kind of teases are these, BTVS!? I don’t appreciate it at all. Everyone knows that when a girl ties a guy’s tie in a show, it’s TOTAL endgame. Which we know won’t happen here for…reasons.
Ugh. I kind of hate-love this storyline because I’ve been secretly rooting for these two since the ice cream scene. And I hate it because sometimes I just want characters to have platonic relationships. And then I hate it some more because it also destroys Xander and Cordelia. (Willow and Oz was also collateral damage, but I’m not that invested in that relationship, honestly.)
AND NOW I’M STUCK IN A FRIENDS DILEMMA. Are we team Xander here? Should he be redeemed!?!! (These are actual questions you should feel free to answer if you’d like.) I mean, on the one hand Cordelia should not forgive this because it’s gross. But on the other hand, I think she should because of THE FELLS GUYS. ALL OF THE FEELS.
And second, I did sort of feel like this came out of left field.
Okay? Don’t lie to me, that’s how the scene played off to you too.
But on the other hand, we do know that Willow has been in love with Xander for a very, very long time. Being with Oz doesn’t just automatically make all of that go away. And knowing what we know about Xander — how much he craves the attention from all of the women in his life — well, it’s easy to see how this would happen. Of course, it’s been some time since Xander has slipped like this. Back in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered,” the relationship with Cordelia was somewhat new, but we still saw how easily Xander would have given up on it if Buffy came beckoning for him. Here, however, time has taken its toll. And while whether or not Willow and Xander didn’t want to tell the truth because it was a tricky situation (given the dynamic of the group) or because they valued the other relationships more is quite murky, I will say that it at least speaks a bit more to the Xander/Cordelia relationship.
Speaking of which, is sort of on the rocks. We ended on “The Wish,” so I don’t know how much more development this gets, but I was both pleased and turned off by how Xander’s cheating was treated. Cordelia’s initial reaction (and then so on in “The Wish”) were particularly amazing. We’ve all witnessed just how much Cordelia actually values her relationship with Xander, so I’m extremely happy with how it was dealt on her end. And of course, somehow it related back to her obsession with keeping up with Buffy (which was sort of on display in “Homecoming,” as well) that then made her wish herself into a world where Buffy never came to Sunnydale.
More so, it made her question why she’s always the damsel in distress. I won’t get into it, because obviously Cordelia goes on to Angel and becomes the female lead there, but in some ways I think “The Wish” dealt a lot with the reasoning behind why Cordelia can’t be the star of the proverbial show in her world. Without Buffy, she just dies in the middle of her own storyline (literally, yes, but also metaphorically). She’s sort of just not even a factor. As I said, we know she goes on to bigger things, but the only way I see that working out is if this breakup truly fuels her character to change and better herself. I’m probably reading too much into it so I’ll stop there.
But I will say that I wasn’t exactly keen on the idea of using the perhaps-ending of Xander and Cordelia’s relationship to fuel the alternate universe of “The Wish” for it to then become an afterthought joke right before the credits. I’m crazy this way.
Okay, okay, okay, okay… so I didn’t want to say anything then, in fear that everyone would sort of just think I’m gross, but I kind of felt something between these two in “Killed By Death.” And so when I saw them hanging out in “Band Candy,” I was so hoping they’d make out on top of a car or something…and lo and behold!
The only bad thing about these two is their shipper name is THE SAME NAME. Jiles is Giles and Goyce is Joyce! And, sure, we could use Rupert, but who EVEN calls Giles by Rupert? And using Summers would make it sound like Buffy and just ewwwww.
Ha! Okay, so, I would be completely fine if this never developed beyond this but it was fun for the episode…especially seeing Buffy squirm. In fact, I would want it to happen again just to see her squirm some more.
So somewhere in these six episodes, everyone sort of found out that Buffy was stashing Angel in some mansion somewhere. And they were sort of pissed because “ugh he killed Jenny and is the worst remember?” even though apparently spending several hundred years in hell isn’t good enough punishment. These people hold on to a grude, gawsh.
Anyway, Buffy decides that they can’t see each other because they still have feelings for one another (I’m waiting for the episode where we see that Angel had a relationship with some hot demon girl in hell for several hundreds of years). And then she walks out. Seeing as this is somewhat the beginning of the season, it’s hard to think that they won’t relapse on their relationship here — in both aspects, platonic and romantic. But it’s also very difficult to see how the rest of the group will ever forgive him. I mean, we know a part of the group has to (given the spinoff show). And we know that technically Angel wasn’t himself. But at this point, it appears that the rest of the group truly sees him as just another vampire, which is understandable. (I still have issues with the show always picking and choosing which moments it actually wants to be dramatic, sometimes.)
They should seriously just do a mass soul restoration “curse” on every vampire so that they can just relax for a day or two.
Tell me The Master ISN’T making a rap pose there.
Anyway, in “The Wish,” we find out that Buffy will always have died going against The Master. However, in this version there are no puddles around so that she may drown in, so The Master just breaks her neck. Makes sense.
Having watched Dollhouse and Dr. Horrible thus far, I know that Joss Whedon doesn’t always strive for happy endings (especially the former). I bet if it were completely in his hands, he would have killed Iron Man. Somehow I was thinking that BTVS would be different given the show’s sense of overcoming. But now I fear that the series ends in Buffy’s death, in which she will no longer be the slayer and yet another one will come along.
I know that the alternate universe is worse because Buffy didn’t go the the Hellmouth, and now there are technically two slayers, but I don’t suppose the life expectancy of a slayer is long (especially given the fact that there seems to be an endless supply of girls Buffy’s age lined up ready to be the next slayer).
Faith’s new watcher was so painfully bad from the beginning, right? As soon as she showed up on screen, I just knew.
Ugh, I was kind of hoping that Faith would just be that happy go lucky character on the show who goes around wrestling alligators while naked but now she has feelings too?
This one comes thanks to stefanhero on Tumblr, although I should have seen it. Under Buffy’s list of weaknesses for Cordelia she puts Xander! OH MY GOODNESS THE FEELS.
I haven’t said this yet but my absolute favorite thing about season 3 is when the camera cuts to Jonathan and he’s just eating different foods. Supposedly we get much more of Jonathan, but I just want him to be eating different stuff for the rest of the series. Why can’t I just have that?
I want everyone to know that: YES, I did notice another red-on-black PSA poster. This time it was for suicide. I’m glad no one was creeping up behind someone else in this one.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAAAA!!!!!!!
Beauty and the Beasts: Eh. I love, in particular, that Scott is like “I knew them my whole life” after his friends died and Buffy’s all “I’m sorry for your loss” and then he responds “LOLWUT I don curr.” WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS THAT?
Homecoming: Hilarious! I like this episode a lot for the Buffy/Cordelia dynamic…and it was quite funny, to boot!
Band Candy: Again, another fun episode. It sort of reminded me of “Halloween” in that people were roaming the streets not being themselves, but seeing the adults stretch their acting muscle was particularly entertaining.
Revelations: It was okay. Once again, I didn’t feel like the twist was a big deal, but I guess the more important aspect here is how everyone dealt with Angel having returned. In that regard, it was good.
Lovers Walk: Fantastic. Great episode! And definitely an episode where I actually liked Spike again, who’s much better without Dru. More so, as I mentioned, I really loved the drama between Xander and Cordelia.
The Wish: Again, fantastic! It was great to see the alternate world in which Xander and Willow were being all awesome. Great job! I know a lot of people aren’t particularly fans of “what if” episodes…some feel it’s just a copout to be silly or see something irrelevant, but I usually tend to like them a lot. I’m that guy who liked Shrek 4, y’know? Anyway, the point being that it was quite entertaining.
And that’s another week! Sorry I didn’t do it more traditionally, but then I would have never finished! Under 2,000 words! YUS!
We watch another six on Monday and Tuesday over at #BuffyRewatch!
Thanks to BuffyWorld for supplying most of the images and thanks to Kassie for suggesting them.
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View Comments
The Wish is awesome episode and it makes a comeback in more than one!
agreed. for me its frankly just FRIGHTENING on just how much consistency there is between those plots and everything else in the show :) There's not even one bit that would not be used in the grand scale of everything.
Beauty And The Beasts i see as metaphor for Buffy and Angel's relationship. There are some very clever parallels between scenes between the pairing in the story of the week and buffy and angel, notably the scene where Angel pretty much repeat's the monologue of "please forgive me" that Pete said Debbie at the start of episode, while the show parallels literally both pairing - except that Pete and Debbie are lying dead on the floor.
As for Pete and Debbie themselves. Scott implies that he hired them to be his friends to impress Buffy and never really even knew them . Yeah....dude is a bit of a douche.
Homecoming is possibly one of my favorite Episodes and it really parallel's Buffy and Cordelia well. Cordelia is Buffy's past as we have seen in S2 finale. A past that Buffy longs to go back to because everything was just so much damn easier back then. Cordelia on other hand is someone who deep inside wants to BE like Buffy but where she is now, literally holds her back from that. I would go into the whole parallels and opposites thing more but that's too spoilery.
Band Candy depresses me now. For one, its pretty much amongst one of the last "comedic" episodes of the season and stuff. Its hilarious to see how Giles was back then, all these years back, though.
Revelations I love though. The thing is - Angel MIGHT have spent an eternity in hell, but the main cast did not. Its been less than a year since Angel went all psycho and started murdering people.
Willow is more forgiving because she kept her own secrets and is generally not very trust-worthy in morally-right decisions. Angel hurt her the least.
Cordelia, as shown in The Wish, is getting incredibly frustrated by the fact that, oh well - she is living in the town where EVERYONE tries to kill them. And Angelus is just another horrible thing Buffy brought into her life. She is also the most reasonable one in this - Seriously how long till Buffy and Angel repeat her last birthday and the hijinks start again?
Xander is driven by both his attraction to Buffy and his anger towards Angel. He IS a sort-of moral compass, even if a bit skewed one. Angel did horrible things. It does not matter on if he is sorry or if he repents or if he suffered. it does not undo anything. In fact I'd say that that's major theme of the buffyverse's both shows - you can't just tip the scales of the bad stuff you did by doing good stuff. Its not how it works.
Giles has the most reasons to despise Angel. Angel took away his love. He tortured him, he dangled an illusion of his lost love in his face, and so on.
Let's not forget that all four of them have been physically attacked by Angel who could theoretically kill them in an instant. Willow was moments away from getting her neck snapped, Cordy got jumped in Cemetery, Xander got thrown out of the second floor of Summer's house and had to confront him again in the hospital, Giles confronted him three times, the last one ending up in a brutal torture.
So yeah, when it comes to personal safety, people can be "petty" like that. :P
What's more, for them, Buffy is more of an idol - someone who waltzed into Sunnydale like a superhero, saving the weak, doing no mistakes, etc, etc, etc. So seeing a human, very fallible and very flawed side of Buffy is something that is hard to accept them - her friends are holding her to the standards she herself implied to have. Only Willow is more forgiving because she can relate.
Let's also not forget that Buffy has not been cuddling with them all for months - she has left them for months. So this person whose fault it was that a psycho almost killed everyone, leaves her friends without a notice for months, returns and then does multiple screw ups one by one. From Scoobie point of view - its quite hard to accept or relate to her.
Lover's Walk still hurts. Its Whedon laughing at willow/xander shippers, bassically. Indeed there are some feelings one should not act upon. The show makes it clear by the end of an episode that Willow, due to the whole ego and self-esteem boost, wanted "everything" she could have - for her, having Oz, someone she clearly loves was not enough. For Xander, this new, more confident, more pretty Willow also became more attractive. And it took horrible mistakes being made for them both to sort out what they want in their life. Sadly, they might have ruined it in progress of figuring it out, it remains to be seen.
Also, Buffy/Angel/Spike snark = hilarious, although they DO make quite a good team.
The Wish YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!
I LOVE LOVE LOVE The Wish. Why? Let's count:
- The first usage of "bored now" phrase.
- Anyanka.
- Cordelia starting to figure out her life!
- Anyanka!
- The showcase of just how easily Master murders Buffy.
- All the foreshadowing and grimmness of the world they created.
Also I love the idea - Wish!Giles HOPES that the "previous world" was better. We do not know it. there are still 5 seasons and the half for him to be proven wrong or right.
As for Cordellia and developing as a character. Well I'd say her problem is that she is sort-of stuck in between who she was and who she is on the way of becoming.
She does not want to go back to being "sheep Cordy" but she does not want to end up like "loner Buffy". She wants to be how Buffy appears to be(someone capable, selfless, someone flawless, someone heroic) , but at the same time she is not Buffy and Buffy herself has a lot of flaws she hides behind how she wants to appear(as she can be quite selfish, less than heroic and have a lot of flaws).
So trying to achieve what Buffy appears to be might result in something different and its up to Cordelia herself to figure out the road she wants to walk. And all the tragedies and loss that she faces is part of that journey. Her character, what she goes through truly fascinates me.
As for Happiness? well....not much of that ahead.
Buffy IS a coming-of-age story so its only normal that childhood period (S1) would be happier than early teenager period(S2) and that a time closer to "adulthood"(S3) is even less happy and even more real.
Buffy and everyone are slowly moving away from being sheltered and getting to experience just how cruel the world and reality can be.
Its the year when everyone is starting to figure out who they want to be - find themselves, the very root of who they are. And catching a glimpse of who you are and who you can be sometimes can be very painful experience, making you want to cover up and forget it all. But that's a very normal feeling and a process of one's journey to adulthood.
So everyone is being faced with their darker sides, with the ideas and capabilities they have to go both ways
Angel can be either a cold-blooded killer or someone better and pretty much every conversation so far about him has been about that.
Buffy can go more than two ways. She has capability of living very different both normal and supernatural lives and she has capability of walking down very different paths depending on who she is and what she can do, so the show shows to us and to her both her darkness and her light, her cons and her pros, her flaws, her talents, etc.
And its really the same for Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Faith, too. They all are trying to figure out who they want to be and who they can be and where they fit in in this crazy world called reality.
As for Mayor...yeah..he has been a major enigma since somewhere mid-season two when he was first mentioned. He has been getting mentions of being involved in a lot of things (like the doctor who dies in "Killed by Death" saying that he knows the mayor as one of arguments of letting him continue the experiments).
he is someone shrouded in mistery and unlike Angelus, who was very impulsive Joker-like type of guy who goes with the flow, improvises and sets up scenes, Mayor is someone all about planning and focusing on his goal.
At the same time he has a very clear different vibe from Angelus. Angelus is psychotic artist of death. Mayor looks and acts like calm warm daddy politician. their modus operandi are pretty much opposite and while Angelus loves theatrics and bombastic elements in his plans(setting up Jenny's corpse with the overblown opera arias, etc), Mayor is more focused on achieving what he wants.
I'd say that out of this season, The Mayor is one(and possibly the only) character who certainly knows what he wants and works towards it.
About Angel. I don't think everyone was mad that he killed people, because that obviously wasn't his fault. I think they were actually more scared that he could lose his soul again, so easily. And they didn't want to risk him being around again.
Though they overreacted, they acted just like most normal human beings would. Scared and irrational.
But you see, just because losing soul is NOT something that was his fault, capability of killing, everything that Angelus is, IS.
After all a "soul" in buffyverse is not a personality. An essence of who you are is a spirit and it dies with you, its part of who you are. Soul is just lifeforce, fueling you. its a powersource.
But if Soul is this green clean renewable energy, demonic essence is the industrial revolution. IT does not give you a conscience and does not restrict the being.
Scoobies want to separate it. Set right and wrong. But the line between
Angelus and Angel is very blurry and Angel IS capable of the same thing,
just has restraint. Angelus, everything that he is comes from Angel. So
how does one separate responsibility for his actions? He has a soul and
that prevents him from doing it, but it does note excuse what already
happened. And he can lose the soul at any moment by simply being happy.
If we replace losing a soul with getting drunk(similar thing, lowered inhibitions, etc) does a drunken man suddenly become no longer responsible for his victims? The same is with Angel and its the reason he broods and is so depressed all the time - he has no excuse for all those things, because all the drive and capability to do them always was in him. He truly has a reason to brood.
Its both them not excusing what he did AND not wanting it to be repeated.
I do not think they overreacted. Xander sure did afterward, but the initial reaction is understandable - Buffy hid from them a potential danger that they are aware capabilities of pretty well. She lied to them and deceived them. So they are hurt, and scared, and vengeful and its human and truly normal and frankly expected reaction, especially from Giles.
Afterward what Xander did, that was overreaction. But then again, Buffy has not been miss righteous or clear-thinking in this situation either for last few weeks- the idea of having Angel back let her ignore any potential dangers or any worries of her friends getting hurt. Which is why I think there's a sense of balance with neither Scoobies nor Buffy blaming each other too much by the end of episode. Both sides messed up.
Cordelia summed up their feelings... Angelus was not concern about killing Buffy just her friends.
Yep. Cordy has been the most rational in that situation. She has been known of saying it all how it is, without sugarcoating it all.
Seriously frankly? How long till Buffy and Angel snuggle again and the same hijinks start? How long till "he's better now" turns into "opps I did it again"? Its very much a reasonable fright for her.
Angelus is something truly frightening for them. he is not just a "predator" just another vampire. He has a horrifying dedication to his "art". And these people experienced it first-hand.
Buffy might love Angel, but those people don't. To them Angel brought some of the most horrible and frightening moments of their life. And they are not even sure they can trust Buffy's decisions, what's with last few months or so.
I didn't say Cordy was being rational but she summed up there feelings. Cordelia's not rational, honest yes, rational, debatable. The Wish is an example of how irrational Cordy is because she is a teenager.
As for their worries while I think they had to right to think that circumstances of how Angel lost his soul was based on Jenny allowing the Scoobies to remain ignorant and I think they all came (except Xander) realize Buffy wouldn't make that mistake. She actually does learn her lesson and she did hit him where it counted she proved she was loyal by killing him, something they all thought she was incapable of doing.
Willow likes Angel, Cordy cared for Angel (for shallow reasons), Oz thinks Angel is awesome and Giles respected Angel. Just Xander doesn't. But yeah they wary of him considering he still not that put together after spending alot of time in hell, I would be wary of that guy too.
They all had good points but so did Buffy in that argument and it makes them human and normal.
But does Buffy really at this point learn from the mistakes, yet?
She is far too afraid to face herself(which is part of this season's main theme, imo). She is running away from a lot of consequences and guilt and she just now faced having to kill Angel.
And I think that if not for all the other developments like Spike's visit and all the other problems, the situation would have repeated itself. Buffy is so in love with finding excuses for her own actions by this point all the part of this "righteous selfless does no wrong" hero act she has as a way of dealing with her problems,that it all would probably lead the same situation.
Everything else that happens, like the whole Spike situation and someone else directly challenging her point of view(be it scoobies or spike or giles or faith) is what it takes for her to start to take in that she might do wrong stuff, make wrong decisions.
Buffy at this point right now has no balance. She is on her way of self-discovery, on the whole soul-searching journey of who she is but she lived with the idea of "I am superhero, good and infallible" for so long,as a way to deal with her guilt trip of thinking she is responsible for divorce, for disappointing her mother, for losing her normal life, etc, that sheis finding it hard to accept that she can do wrong too.
Cordy can get irrational, but in this situation alone she was pretty much the most rational out of the group.
While Buffy has the point that they can't just "condemn" and kill Angel because he is different now, I doubt Buffy even thought about how Angel being there could affect all
of them. She just acted upon it the way she would and then when
everything blew up searched for an excuse, to justify herself to herself.
Its all about Buffy learning to face herself and I feel this is a part of it.
I was talking about the situation with Angel... Spike is another story and another issue entirely, at least imo. I was stating there was no worry over Buffy and Angel making love again now that they are aware of the causes of Angel losing his soul because in season 2 it was Jenny's fault for leaving Buffy in the dark about it.
I don't think Cordy was being rational as her opinion came from what Xander said, who really distorted and did not know the full situation when he blabbed. As Angel at that point was still pretty harmless to the Scoobies as he just getting his bearings back.
I think she did think about it but it is a confusing situation as no one knows what to make of the situation. Everyone else was making hasty situations based on feelings and not on logic, hence everyone was acting irrational but human. It wasn't fair to bring up what if she decides to give him a happy as if she did it in season 2 knowing Angelus was going to be released.
BTW Willow was more upset over the fact Buffy made her doubt her abilities as a witch.
No Worry? I really doubt. As Spike said, Love is not brains. All it would take is a moment of weakness and it would all go down the same path yet again. What Spike's little arrival as well as Scoobie intervention did was for Buffy to actually accept that it COULD happen. That she could technically be in that position even if she knows its wrong. Which is why she breaks any connection with Angel. Its the first case that she is thinking clear on this whole subject and it would be impossible without others actually challenging her point of view and showing all the holes in her justification of it.
Xander was morally right in the intervention scene. Angel killed people. He destroyed lives. He tortured people. Its not something you can just lalala and forgive and forget. The fact that Angel is a threat is very real and while Xander might be influenced by his own feelings about Angel and his own experiences(Inca Mummy Girl?), his point is morally sound.
Cordelia provides a logical and blunt view over that. Her view is not about morality of what Angel did to them. its about the real and present danger of what Angel could do if Buffy and him "slip up" and cause another slasher movie to start happening in sunnydale. Its a very materialistic viewpoint, but very realistic one at this time too - Buffy hiding angel, buffy being alone in contact with Angel is a very dangerous factor in this and everyone would have benefited from actually knowing about the possible threat. Because if these two messed up somehow as she was hiding it, Scoobies would have no idea that Angelus is back.
Buffy thoughts about Angel most likely could be simplified as "OMG he is back. Dunno what I feel about this. ", with emphasis of I, because, just like in "Dead Man's Party", she first looks at it all through the viewpoint of herself even forgetting other viewpoints and danger Angel possessed. The naive wish for it all to go back to pre-17thbirthday wins over logic. As result as it all comes out she has a hell of a hard time finding an explanation about hiding Angel from them and the whole "He is better now" is actually a deliberate choice because its a phrase emotionally abused women use about their abusers sometimes. It highlights that this whole obsession and hiding him is really not healthy and that while Scoobie reaction is extreme and Xander's latter actions with Faith are utterly wrong and going overboard, Buffy's own idea of hiding Angel was also unhealthy.
And the "giving a happy" problem is actually real. Buffy has this idea that she "could not possibly" want something wrong or act upon something wrong she wants. She can find excuses for what she wants and being with angel IS pretty much like dancing on a minefield right now and these two episodes make her realize that being with each other could theoretically make either of them mess up and cause yet another Angelus situation.
Willow is always upset when someone challenges her capabilities. Its part of her growing ego. However in some way, Buffy undermined every member of Scoobies in this situation(barring Cordelia), Willow just could relateto Buffy more because of keeping-a-secret bit.
First off Xander was jealous and there was no other reason why he spilled the beans.
Also giving a happy was not a problem as nothing she and Angel was doing while romantic was not going to lead to anything sexual because of what they were aware of this curse but the way Xander put it Buffy purposely gave Angel a happy in season 2 knowing it would unleashed Angelus. Even if Buffy "slip", I don't think Angel would allowed it but again. That Happy situation was not going happen anytime soon hence the frustration it brings.
Now like I said I get where they were coming from (except Xander was jealous but we know they will discuss his behavior towards Angel later), Buffy had a point too because at the end of the day if she needs to put him down, she would do it.
I am not going to discuss Spike as I have my opinions on his version of love which is not the same for everyone else on the show but it hard to place that on Buffy whose duty as a slayer will always have higher priority than that.
Xander was jealous, I did already agree to that in my comment above. So was he in Season Two. But it does not change that a lot of what he says bears truth. its not clear cut. Nothing in this show is.
Yet again you are trying to interpret relationship through thinking. They can be aware of many things and yet still do them. Love is not something that allows them to think straight. they were never supposed to be kissing too, after all and yet they did. who has a confidence to say that they could not slip up at some point of this angst? No one.
Buffy knows that and she knows that what she wants she can NOT have and should not even try to have. Thus she leaves Angel to prevent any sort of missteps.
And about Angel allowing or not allowing it. Let's leave it for the next week :) Its far more appropriate to discuss Angel's POV after Amends.
As for Buffy's duties as a slayer. yet again. "its not a duty". Its who she is, as Kendra said. She can make mistakes and while she is morally obsessive right now, there's nothing to say that she could slip up at one point or the other at being so. She has this superpower and a supposed destiny and what she does with it is up to her.
Putting Angel down ? maybe, with the right set of conditions. 9 times out of 10 she would do it.,But she is only human and can fail too.
here the thing she failed to put him down in season 2 and that led to Jenny's death. That to me was her human moment and her mistake, she imo would never allow herself to repeat. I didn't mean duty, I meant nature and that nature throughout the entire run will always negate romance for Buffy because sort of like Angel, she is meant to be alone.
However, if you watch Angel, Angel and Angelus are more like two different people (err...beings). (*spoiler alert*) Angel couldn't remember meeting the Beast, hence why they decided to bring Angelus back. Buy that could also be because the Beast had all record of him erased, including in the mind.
There's a reason why the show itself retcons most of S4 of angel out of existence. The reasoning behind why Angelus remembered and Angel did not is because of the whole "Erasing history" bit The Beast did, but the inner workings on why exactly one remembered are never given. Let's face it,t hat season was possibly the worst thing Joss ever wrote.
Angel S5 is back at treating Angelus and Angel as parts of the whole. Jut like the rest of BTVS and ATS seasons did. :)
Actually season 4 tied up some loose ends that were happening. I have my opinion why some folks don't like season 4 (I didn't when I first watched it, in fact I was livid) but that to me was some ballsy television right there and real-life circumstances played into alot decisions that were made. I also think Angel got too dark for the audience that season. As for the stuff not explained, most of it got explained in the comics *because Warner Brothers was dumb as hell and cancelled the show, but what can one say about the network who cancelled Popular and Buffy and still allows Julie Plec run anything.
It could have tied up those loose ends in a way that did not introduce a bunch of horrible plotholes or "why the hell is this a plot" ideas.
It was not ballsy. It was rushed. And disjointed. I feel FOX messing and destroying Firefly affected a lot of decision making of Joss in ATS that season.
It was not even "too dark", as S2 and S3 were far darker and morally gray. ATS S4 was just..."Cartoon-y" in its definitions, etc.
That said I still loved a LOT of the side plotlines and pairings that season, the fight scenes were breath-taking and The Beast felt threatening and awesome. and most of stuff was enjoyable to a degree, Its just that there were far too many trainwrecky plotholes to fully enjoy that season as much as previous ones of ATS.
The show acknowledges that, ignoring a lot of that blabbery in the next season of ATS and reaffirming a lot of what was established before S4 of ats.
I saw season 4 as an extension of season 3.
season 5 was bit more cartoony (yes it had dark moments but certain character inclusion made it gimicky) imo but like I said I am pissed we didn't get a sixth season as that would have been interesting thing to see, but the comics exist. i enjoyed it because season 4 was a dark place because the premise of the show was virtually destroyed and reconstructed it (so that to me is ballsy, as it realize it original premise was going stale and they needed to shake things up further). Whedon imo was more concern about wrapping Buffy up. Like I said I love season 4 and I have feeling people dislike for it has more to do with what happens with a certain character but I rewatched it and it actually flows given how mythology works on that show. However I may be biased as my favorite episode is in season 4 "Spin The Bottle". Season 3 didn't get dark until the end for me, hence I see it as an extension.
we are not going to agree on this. I am too much of Whedonite to ever believe any season is trainwrecky. that's just blasphemy. Whedon doesn't do wrong.
Not a huge fan of Season 4, myself...and the whole Cordy thing? Didn't like. At all. But I still watch....
which is why I think based on what happens with that character, people don't like season 4.
Obviously everyone else has much more knowledge than I do (and it sparked quite a discussion), but what I took it as is that Angel is still the same being that caused all of them so much damage, and they're not exactly keen on forgiving and forgetting that so easily. It makes sense for Buffy to be a bit more…uh malleable?…because she was actually in love with Angel, everyone else wasn't. Regardless of having a soul, Angel is still the person that pained them.
I know Cordelia very much expressed she was scared that he would come after the friends, but Xander and Giles were much more concerned with the fact that he was just there…alive and being protected by Buffy, in a sense.
That's what I think anyway.
That was my opinion. And thought Xander's comment was not a valid argument and an overreaction.
Btw I am trying to be vague with what I am referring to so I don't spoil ish for you.
Off-topic: are you going to give your wish list for vampire diaries or you just completely over it?
No, I'm definitely not completely over TVD. Although, the interviews this summer have given me no hope… I might or might not make a wishlist for season 4 because we sort of already had that post. You could probably guess what it is :D
well I was curious as to whether you had differ opinions for what you want. or even has speculation post on what JP discussed. Now she and cast are discussing trying to get Gabby Douglass a role (which other than a cameo I don't think she can get a full blown role because of SAG rules) and I'm going "This is not Gossip Girl and Julie is going try use this as her black friend card. lol." Then on youtube people were commenting saying she should play someone related to Bonnie. lmao at that logic.
or maybe I was hoping you to screencap the comic con panel and interviews. Julie's reaction to the hearing impaired fan and the fact you can tell she forgot about Ayanna was hilarious.
I haven't seen any of the Comic-Con stuff because I was told it was a disappointment, actually. HOWEVER, the one character I do wonder about is Bonnie's cousin. I completely forgot her name now…
AND, yes, my list would be a bit different than Heba's list.
yeah the writers forgot her too. Lucy was her name. maybe because I do remember her I wasn't sure how breaking the Bennett line thing work and it made little sense as one assume there are multiple branches of Bennetts. I guess the same can be said about the Petrova curse.
well I would have loved seeing your list with screencaps.
I don't want to screencap real people, that seems mean to me now. But I could totally just rant for paragraphs and paragraphs hahahaha
I was talking about screencaps from the show if you did a list and rant. I mean this season seems to be shaping to be season 4: everything bad about season 3 part 2.
Comic-Con panel was disappointing and...disturbing. The only thing more disturbing is Plec's tweets over Klaus in Tyler's Body and how funny and not ever creepy she finds that and any possible Tylerklaus interactions with Caroline.
No wonder' show's moral compass is skewed, the writers do not even have it.
I do think that all of them, at some degree, share Cordelia's worry too, but each of them were affected by this situation and by Angel in different way.
Giles was tortured by Angel, lost his girlfriend to him, etc. He is far more focused on the idea that Buffy did not tell him. He feels as if Buffy pretty much spat on everything that he is, both as a person and as her watcher. He clearly feels betrayed in a way and this whole thing brings up all the painful memories and the idea that Buffy theoretically could let it all happen again, making Jenny's death be pointless, pains him. .
Xander is a mix of both pov of moral compass and his own emotions. He and Angel will never be the best buds, and he is willing to condemn him, but at the same time he is appalled by idea of just ignoring the fact that Angel is a killer. For Xander morality is all about black and white, good and bad and while he is biased, part of it is about disbelieving that Buffy could ignore all the baggage of what Angel did. Because from his viewpoint, because of everything Angel did, because of everything that Buffy declares standing for, Angel, from how Xander sees it, should be someone Buffy stands against instead of supporting.
Willow can relate to Buffy. She hid a secret and all and she is far more worried about Buffy herself as well as subconsciously using her to feel better about her own situation.
In the end they all feel both threatened by Angel's presence because of possibilities, betrayed because of Buffy prioritizing him over them, hurt because of someone, that they just got back and are on shaky relations with, deceiving them, and confused because of Buffy doing something that is so unlike the "Buffy Standard" she has set for herself.
I'm back, no longer lurking!
I'm glad someone else loved how Johnathon popped up all over the place with random foodstuffs. I kinda always liked him as a character because he seemed to portray the epitome of high school social awkwardness. Bless him.
Lovers Walk. AHHHHHHH!!!!! The seemingly innocent comment Buffy makes to Angel: ".... but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason!" OH, JOSS. What a tease. The ultimate tease! I also adore the Spike/Joyce relationship. I feel she brings out the best of him in the earlier seasons.
This one will probably result in me recieving death threats....but I don't like Angel. There, I said it. Even when I first watched Buffy - in Season 1, they just kinda ended up "dating" with no real build-up, and I was left thinking "REALLY?! He's a bit stalkery and a bit of a wet blanket. She can do better." THENNNN once the drama of him losing his soul/getting sent to hell/getting his soul returned thing was over - he just bored me. I understand he was a necessary character and the events connected to him helped Buffy be moulded into the person she became (yadda, yadda, yadda) but I really don't rate him. And that's not because I'm all pro-Buffy/Spike. Spike pissed me off too in the beginning, I thought he was a bit of a pathetic "demon of the week" until Becoming. Then the rock band thing was too awesome for words.
I wasn't sure how I felt about Faith until the episode "Bad Girls" - and then I knew. I adore her. So so much! "Graduation Day" just cemented that, she's such a badass. By the time "Who Are You?" rolls around in series 4, I was having almost squealing moments. I love Faith.
Bless you, Holly. You say everything I feel!!! First off, Jonathan is just the best. I hope he keeps eating food forever.
I don't know why I forgot but YES I LOVE Joyce and Spike together. They're absolutely hilarious together. Joyce plays oblivious well in those moments.
And Angel and Spike…well, I've written thousands of words about this, but YES basically EVERYTHING you said. :)
You'll come to love Faith, I promise! Also, I'm currently live rewatching with you guys. My twitter is private so I'll refrain from posting it, but heres a clue: I just replied to your (awesome) reference of the naked alligator wrestling! (Yes, 'Holly' is just a forums name) :)
Haha! I love Faith already! I just don't want to be bogged down by feelings! :P HOWEVER, I cannot read your tweet! If you're private, no one can read anything. So now I'll never know your real name hahaha
BTW I like to comment on the platonic relationships. One thing that I missed about shows is platonic relationships between men and women because that seems to have gone out the window and its annoying. One Tree Hill had one and never once went down the road of trying to pair Lucas with Haley. Star Trek Voyager had those relationships (and I am talking about platonic meaning not ever sexing each other in the past).
Lover's Walk is one of my all-time favorites! There's a great typography video on youtube of Spike's monologue ("You'll never be friends") that I just adore. And the scene with Joyce, Spike, and Angel is one of the funniest things ever.
If Xander is Chandler, then Angel is Ross... It's just so funny to watch things happen to him and then see his frustration.
(That said, I love Angel, but I've watched the series so many times that I kind of love everyone.... except someone from a later season. GRRR.)
Love the emotion James Marsters puts into his monologue. Also - the end montage going through all characters alone and then, in a sort of dissonance, cutting to an entirely different tone of Spike? Brilliant.
Love everyone in the show too, except for certain despicable male character introduced in "I Was Made To Love You".
I love that you knew exactly who I was talking about.
I would now (having watched the series multiple times) list Spike as my favorite character, but I don't know if that would have been true originally prior to watching Lover's Walk. "I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it" is one of my favorite lines from BTVS, not to mention the rest of that scene where he calls Buffy & Angel out on their being "just friends." That episode also mocks Spike who, despite having killed 2 slayers, can be a bit predictable as a villian - of course they are locked up in the warehouse.